Growth Hacking with Top Clubhouse Influencer, Mario Nawfal

Growth Hacking with Top Clubhouse Influencer, Mario Nawfal

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Jake Anderson 0:28
Welcome back to another episode here on the introspective podcast. My name is Jake Anderson, I'm your host. And today we are bringing on a very special guest who has done some incredible things in his journey of entrepreneurship. I'm I think I've never been this curious before about bringing on a guest because I'm just looking at the background and the story of who I'm bringing on to the show. And it just blows my mind at some of the things he has been able to accomplish. And you know, from starting his first business with $300, in the bank selling blenders door to door to now the founder of the Athena group of companies, a business conglomerate that operates in more than 40 countries. Mario navall has cracked the code for growth hacking and has bootstrapped multiple companies to the millions in the e commerce. So we're gonna really dive into growth hacking. And he's also had a lot of success on clubhouse. And there was an interesting occurrence that happened through that experience on clubhouse that we're going to get in later into this episode. But without further ado, I bring to the show Mario Mario, how are you doing?

Mario Nawfal 1:40
Well, subject How are you, man?

Jake Anderson 1:42
Good, good. And I you know, before we got on a call, I was complimenting your beautiful backdrop there and in Lebanon. So from Lebanon to Virginia, I welcome you. It's great to have you and I want to really dive into you know, I just I think I think it's really interesting that you were able to build this conglomerate this operating in all these different countries. And you seem to be just so relaxed. I have so much going on at the same time. Like that was the first thought I had, like, gosh, this guy's so relaxed, but he's got so much going on. And I want to ask you about just this journey that it really got you to where you're at with this conglomerate and and tell me like what were some of the challenges? What were some of the setbacks? And what were some of the breakthroughs that you had?

Mario Nawfal 2:32
Yeah, so shout out to Lebanon I arrived two days ago, not playing cemented me. So excited to see even seen the place I've been, you know, just woke up a couple hours ago. So I'm about to discover the place. So what I do is I rent villas in different countries on to the last last week, Dubai is going to be next Turkey is going to be first in Dubai, but rent different villas. And I bring my team there, and we work a lot. And I've got a place now in Lebanon. And we've got a strike big team here in Lebanon. And Dan will be hustling here. So yeah, man, like, what got me to where I am. As in my story, what got me to the first million and 10 million, or what got me to having this, you know, hustle house in different countries?

Jake Anderson 3:08
You know, I think that you know, more specifically, what we're just, you know, going from from a million to 10 million or even getting to that first million? I find it I find it interesting to understand, like, what were some of the breakthrough moments that you had in that journey specifically? Yeah, so, um,

Mario Nawfal 3:28
the journey wasn't smooth, the, and I didn't know what the hell I'm doing. To be honest, most people are in a similar position. And I know a lot of people that listen to your podcast are starting out with their business summer already have a business. And both, you know, both categories, don't know what the hell they're doing. You just don't want to understand when you start to understand how much you don't know, it gives you an edge, because then you're humble enough to always be learning and to pivot when you get something wrong. Now, I was extremely humble, I had imposter syndrome. When I started my first company, like, Who the hell am I didn't even what intrapreneurship meant. But one thing I did want is what I would do is I would test different things. And then when something works, I tripled down. So I tested selling different products door to door, I tested different strategies of selling these products. When I went into eecom. I tested different ads. And then when something works, I just got all in I did that for two years. I didn't expect my business to last more than a year or two. I'm like let me catch up a bit and then move on to the next thing. My that business that I started about a few companies now but that business truly still exists to this day and doing better than ever in a few dozen countries. So it doubling down a Jim Collins talks about it, you throw pebbles, and then when a pebble hits, you get the cannonball again, you throw pebbles, you test different ideas, and a pebble hits in ID works. Get the frickin Cannonball it just got all in until the ID no longer works or the law of diminishing returns on all your efforts. The return starts to diminish. When you get to that stage and move on to the next thing. That's if you're a one man band, if you've got a team something works, get your team all in on it. Like right now. We're doing Where we're going on the women all in on clubhouse, and that's something we're gonna talk about. And because it worked, and we put all our team there that ended abruptly. Now we're at least for now that now we're moving to Twitter spaces and we're moving to NF T's non fungible tokens. I'm deep in crypto, I'm a partner at a law firm, I got a VC fund, I've got a consulting firm, and there's a lot of demand. Now, there's a lot of potential NF T's non fungible tokens, and not a hype behind it. So that's we found a strategy that works really well in the space. So that's probably our main focus right now, as a company, we're doubling down. So my, the way I started, my business is doubling down on what works is still the way I do business today.

Jake Anderson 5:37
So one thing, and I read this on your website, and I think this ties in with what you were just talking about, he said smart work is predominantly doing the right thing. But I think for a lot of people that are, you know, getting started, and I know I've been in this position too. And you perhaps you've been here as well, as you always question yourself, Am I doing the right thing? Like, how do I know if I'm actually doing the right thing? And getting clarity? They're like, do you have any thoughts on that?

Mario Nawfal 6:07
Yeah, that's a good question. I get this asked a lot. But there's no echo on my end, is there?

Jake Anderson 6:11
No, you sound good?

Mario Nawfal 6:13
Perfect. All right. And some people ask me, when is it a good time to stop beating a dead horse? or stop doing something when there's no return? When do you know a business idea or strategy isn't working? There's a lot of metrics you can have like in clubhouse, for example, how many people are joining my room? Is my room growing? In a business? The bottom line is obviously the most important, but there's other metrics as well. Is my community growing? you're launching your podcast? are more people listening to my podcast, people that are listening? Am I getting positive feedback, negative feedback? So looking at those metrics, the the main metrics show how much money am I making? Or how big is my community blowing? And then many metrics along the line? What's my conversion rate? What's the response rate of an econ business? What's the retention rate of the customers to customer feedback? What's the score, the score one out of 10, the customer satisfaction score of what what is score, but there's a score where you score your rate, you ask people to rate your dissatisfaction with your product and your whole experience one to 10. If your rating is below 10, there's a name for that, if the rating is below 10, and it's NPV, and PV, I know what it stands for the ratings below seven, that's not a good thing. If this rating is that rating is increasing, then you're doing something right. So using those indicators that will allow you to determine if you're doing the right thing is, is is important because then then you know you're focusing on the right thing. And because two important things when doing work, conscientiousness determines success. conscientiousness has four factors to it, the most important ones are working hard and working smart, working hard, it's easy to know, hey, I'm working hard. I'm not sleeping, working smart. Doing the right thing is more important, and harder to determine if you're doing the right thing or not. So those indicators are key for that.

Jake Anderson 7:51
Yeah, that's I'm so glad you brought that up. I mean, it's easy to just kind of get caught in this tornado of, of working, working, working. And you're, you're kind of lost into what's actually working. But if you don't measure it, then you really you just have no clarity, like you really don't know exactly what's working or what's not. And I think that it's important for people to intentional about having, you know, some kind of, I guess, some kind of a scorecard or something established with whatever it is that they're doing to be able to constantly keep the thumb on that pulse of, of growth and measurement. You know, I, I was looking, I saw a YouTube video and I and I kind of smiled as I was watching this. And I wanted to ask you about it. The YouTube video was like, you talk about not paying for gurus, right. And I know, I'm smiling TV, I think it was and it was funny, because like the way you did the video for anybody that's watching, you know, I'll link the YouTube video up in the show notes. So some people go watch it, but I thought like the way that you spelled it out was beautiful, like the way that you explained it. Because I know there's there's people out there, especially when they get started in online. They they're very naive, maybe is the word for it. And they get into it, and then they end up spending money with people and then they realize that that was a mistake, or they learned the hard way, what have you. But you know, when it comes to development and getting started, we had started earlier about talking about the mistakes that you make, and you screw things up, etc, etc. So the advice a lot of people give is like, well go find a mentor, go find a coach or go find somebody that can help you along the way. Like what's your thoughts on mentorship and coaching and kind of how to approach things.

Mario Nawfal 9:37
Yeah, that's that alone is a journey for me that there's one hell of a story about this. If you want me to tell the story I can. But I'll ask you a question first. If you want the story I can tell you of my journey into making that video my intentions with it, how that transpired and then how they alternate against me somehow. It's pretty crazy. But my conclusion to the audience to bring them value. Learning is everything being humble enough to learn is key. Paying for learning is nothing wrong with it. But paying, expecting, like, if you listen to all these coaches, a lot of them not all of them, many of these coaches, each one of them will tell you what they teach will change your business. Facebook marketing will change your business, my strategy, this strategy will change your business. This Google said you'll change your business, this influence this affiliate strategy, this asked strategy, all these different strategies that make it seem like it's the one thing that will change your business. That's over promising. And then what people will do is I think this is the magic bullet. If I learn this, I'm fine. It's not like that, like business is a freakin difficult puzzle. Even for the smartest people, even those people making courses, many of them don't even have a business because it's hard. There's some people that is completely slimy as hell, I've got one. There's one, one guy, I wish I remember his name cuz I want to call him out. But he's known like he would be promising the world. And then he says he makes X amount of money. Of course, there's something why nothing. And then his ecommerce drop shipping businesses were losing money. One of them was scanning clients. And then one of his students was actually making more money than the guy selling the course. And the guy selling the cost. There's an internal discussion between them, they're like, shit, this guy, the student of ours is actually making more money than us. Let's copy his ID. So the guru, the coach has a pretty good following. It's copying the idea of students. This is the bottom of the this is the these are the people that don't just call out and I freaking hate and I don't think that should exist in business. Now. Then there's the other side, there's the people like the Tai Lopez, you know, I know Ty would chat over here and they were chatting yesterday. I know time he shows you the Lamborghinis he shows you the girls. Sure. But then when he listened to him, he doesn't give you a magic bullet like this thing will change your business, though. He goes overboard with marketing. But what he teaches is logical. His cut prices for his courses, at least now are low paying 15 3060 $100 is fine. When I start seeing coaches started charging three 5k for people that barely have enough money and then telling them, Hey, get a loan to pay for a course. I think anyone that can afford a call should never pay for a course, if you're not making six figures, or high five figures don't even look at a freaking course. But if you are making money if you can afford some of its course, and sanparks course, Jason Calacanis has a course on how to raise money. He can't like he likes to call out fake gurus. But he has, of course, himself. These are good courses to buy, there's a place for them. But if you can't afford them, don't get a loan to get a course. Because most of what you need is available for free. Of course, all they do. And of course, they structure it for you. And they held you accountable and they give you that extra bit of support. But if you don't have the money, you can get everything for free. me. I've done I've got two courses, one about growth hacking one about building an agency for job service method. They're all free. There's no funnel, and other communities where we support you all of them for free. People messaged me every day joining those communities, there's never been a funnel, there's never been an upsell, nothing at all. So there are people that help for free. But I will not go as far as one of those. If you pay Coach 10k, he's going to go further than I will. Why? Because he received 10 days of business model for him. For me, that's not a business model that I have. So I've got friends that do coaching JT, Fox, Tai Lopez, etc. But I also have friends like Spencer, Cornelia, and Tom Nash, that call out bullshit courses. So I've got friends on both sides of the aisle. I think there's a middle ground, there's good courses, but there's bullshit is anyone that promises the world. And then they're just trying to take your money, avoid those people. Listen to them, if they promised the world, avoid those freaking people. If you ask them, Hey, I don't think I have the money. And they keep pushing you to get their course. Avoid those people. But if you tell them, I don't have money, they're like, hey, come back when you have money? Or if they have a certain criteria before they accept you. Okay, do you need to be making $50,000 a year before you jump in our course? Those are people I would listen to, those are people that they might they might bring your money. So there's a place for them. There's also a lot of snake oil salespeople.

Jake Anderson 14:08
Yeah. I've experienced about having I've never paid anybody, you know, in the high 1000s, or multiple 1000s of dollars for programs. But I definitely have even spent like a few $100 on a program got into and kind of scratched my head and thought, wow, this was not at all what I expected getting into it. But real quick, before we go any further, let's do a quick plug here. You mentioned that you have a community and there's some free there's free courses for growth hacking, like where can people get access to that or get

Mario Nawfal 14:38
just yeah, Google my name Mario nofal and finale, a w f of Fred al, Google my name and contact me on any platform, say hey, I want to join your community. We'll plug you in. I appreciate the plug Jake. And we just support I've been doing it for a few years and I've never changed anything, anyone. So something I enjoy doing.

Jake Anderson 14:55
Yeah, yeah. That's great. That's awesome. You know, we need more people like you out there who's willing to Giving on helping people, you know, especially people who, who really are trying to make a difference in our lives and their families and make an impact on other lives and they need that guidance. And you're totally right. I mean, you can think even Ilan Musk has said this one time in an interview, because you're asking about college education, like he kind of looked at, you know how your lawn is, he's like, anything you want. You just get it for free on the internet. Like, why would you? You know, why would you go and pay for education? It's

Mario Nawfal 15:27
just because there's, there's more, there's more to it. Like, again, one thing you find about me is I'm not one sided. I'm not buying it. Right. This is bad. This is good. I'm always in the middle. Yeah, there's a book, there's a book about billionaires of choice. Look at the most common characteristic more billionaires, and it's not being binary billionaires that always find a middle ground. It's sort of looking at things black and white. I hate this person. This person is evil. This thing is evil. This thing is great. This thing is perfect. This changed my life. No, somewhere in the middle, or something seems too good to be true. It probably is. When it's when it feels like the world's coming to an end, it probably isn't. Now, back to the point that Ilan is making. Yeah, colleges is I'm not a fan of college, especially for entrepreneurs. There is a different side. There's it's not it's not only the education, paid courses, not on the education. If they're a good cause they hold you accountable. They structure things for you, they do hold you accountable. Now, is it worth $3,000 5000 bucks? Sam Sam ovens course I bought it from one of my team members A few years ago, there is my business partner now. About four years ago. Is it worth X number of dollars? He says it is? I say it depends. Can you afford it? If you're making enough money to afford it, then yeah, it could be worth it. Are you the type of person who will sit there listen to it. Do you know what you're expecting then? Sure. But is it a $5,000 course for someone just starting out? And it promises you to become a millionaire in a year? That is bullshit, huh?

Jake Anderson 16:40
Yeah. Look at the messaging. I mean, look, I think that's a great filter is like look at the messaging and the sale in the sales messaging, and see, like, what are some of the things that they are saying some of the promises that they're making. And, and I think that if, if it's put in this context of, you know, get rich quick, and, you know, this, this, this thing is going to be the key to changing your entire business. It almost seems, you know, too good to be true kind of a situation, it probably is and is probably some snake oil that you might getting, you might be getting involved in. So listen, I want to I want to transition over to talking about growth hacking, because I know that's, that's a big thing that you're involved in and, and and first off just for like just to kind of get started like what specifically? Do you mean, when you when you say growth hacking like is this as in finding quicker ways to get from point A to point B, within your business? Or like, like, what specific? Like, tell me a little bit more about that?

Mario Nawfal 17:46
Yeah, alright, so this, what I'm going to talk about now is probably the most valuable thing anyone listening will find. Especially if you're starting a business or if you're doing six figures, or five figures, even seven figures, growth hacking, I call it I've got if you go on YouTube, right growth hacking mindset, the video comes out where we discuss in details, what it means to have a growth hacking mindset, because at a high level, it's a mindset. granular level, there's a lot of strategies, which I'll touch on. I found out about growth hacking as a mindset A few years ago, I never dug into on a quote, this is really cool, I should dig into I never did. And then a year ago, one of my now business partners, his name is Kirill. He about a year ago, he got into it. And he was working with me as a salesperson got into growth hacking, and showed me what it what he what he was capable of doing as a beginner. And I'll give you some of those examples. They're freaking crazy. I was so obsessed. I rented a big villa in 50. In Turkey. During COVID is a nine bedroom Villa had many growth, hackers come and go, some of the smartest people come and go, my business partners came and I hired people I came up I found business partners them. And we built some of the biggest businesses while we're there or grew my existing businesses through growth hackers is purely growth hacking Villa I'm in Lebanon, now we're bringing my team here in Lebanon, might be going to Colombia soon. All of it is growth hackers. That's my profession. And I have an agency called we are growth hackers. So what is growth hacking? It's a mindset, what I mean by them. From a business perspective, growth hacking is getting from point A to point B is gaming algorithms. Okay? You look at how things work, and you're like, how can I leverage this to my advantage? Okay, so let's say we look at, at Reddit, they already had ranks, but I'm giving you a very simple example. Let's look at Cora. Cora is trusted by Google. It's a website that answers question, Google trust that websites got really high authority. So that's cool. That I could use Cora to rank on Google. So it's like a little shortcut. Now, okay. How do I do that? Well, I need to rank high on Quora first, and then pitch whatever I need to pitch. How can I organically do it? How can I rank high on Quora in an organic way? Well, Cora, there's uploads on medium it's claps. That you can that people will click after reading an article that will allow you to rank high on the platform. There aren't as a growth hacker, how can I rank high on the platform? By getting a lot of upvotes or claps, then you'll realize and then pitch my service and the level of growth, I can come up with a strategy like, Alright, I can use one account to ask a question. I can use another account to answer the question in the question in a very subtle way, like, what are the top marketing agency? Number one will be from big one, number two, some other really big one. Number three, we mean by small ages. So in a subtle way, I put mine there. So now I think number one box, I pitched my service on Quora. Number two is how to write on Quora? Well, I need people to upload it. Well, there's a way you can get people on a website called microworkers. To do anything you want for very cheap, there's another website called Mechanical Turk, same thing. So then you pay people to go to the page to click on upvote, then you rank high on Quora. Okay. So I'm trying to break down exactly the strategy that we do. But a very basic strategy of how growth hacker thinks. They're like, Alright, so I can go that website, Mechanical Turk, or microworkers is better. And again, people go and click, and that gains the algorithm. So now I rank higher. But then the algorithm would probably have ways to find out that these clicks these upwards are not real. I need to make it seem when people go to upvote, they actually read the article. So you have to find a way to get those people to spend time on the page. And there's a way to do that before clicking upvotes. And then the algorithm of Korra will be like, okay, these people that went on the page, click Upload, they spent time on the page means they read the article, it means those up for our legitimate, and then it helps you I'll do them. And then if you want me to break it down further I can on how to make people spend time on the paper. I won't go that technical. And then now you've write on Quora, and then that will then rank on Google for that search and keyword. And I hope you chose the longtail keyword they can rank high for and we've done this, my friend did it for me as a surprise if you go on Google right now. And you right? Best Buy chatter, dance drama, chatter, that's our travel the world. That's the chatter all over my Instagram. That's why I was in Ukraine two days ago. And I'll be in Turkey in a few days. So I might get my friend kkk do that as a little joke for me. And he ranked me out I forgot best but charter dance from Google Why now? There's a Quora answer in Google's Google will actually, it's called 00 page ranking, you know, Google gives you the answer on Google, you'd have to click on any link. So on Google, it puts me as number three in the world, I can put myself in number one or two. But I'm number three in the world. That was a small hack. Now this is a nice little, little cute gift for me. But if you do that for a business, imagine best podcast and your podcast comes up as number two. Number three, obviously, I'm bringing a lot of free traffic with a growth hackers really easy to implement. So when I saw that ability, that's one of many things you know, they sent 1000s of messages on discord on slack on LinkedIn every day. I've made a lot of money through growth, hacking, white hats, all of his legal ethical.

But it's like everyone talks about Google marketing, Facebook marketing affiliate influencing. No one talks about growth hacking. And that boggles my mind. Because I think this is by far the most important skill for anyone getting into business getting into intrapreneurship. Because it will give you a massive edge, whether you're building a community, whether you're building an e commerce, business, ecommerce, so but community b2b, it's a number one weapon, it's been my secret weapon for the past 12 months and, you know, grew North equity is one of my companies, I'm a partner at not my company, to eight figures, we are growth hackers doing seven figures as an agency IBC, my crypto consulting firm, is doing seven figures, and is growing really fast. And all my businesses are growing because of the Growth Hacking Team that I have. So I'm very grateful. I don't take credit for them. They're the growth hackers. I'm the IDS person, but it's an incredible skill that I think anyone listening should learn.

Jake Anderson 23:34
Man, that's so and I was following you through that, that strategy on Quora. One of the questions I had, I just want to just make sure I understand this clear, cuz I'm like sitting there like thinking it's like, I'm ready to go implement this right now. with just the core. But I got a couple questions for you with this. So the first one is you were talking about? They're called micro workers, right? These are people that I guess or just their VA, or whoever that come in, and perform. They'll go on and I guess the like, they'll engage with your the con everyone's Yeah, whatever you want them to do. And what you were saying is that you want to make sure that people are it's got to look, it's got to come off as it's Yeah, it's genuine. It's actually a valuable, valuable piece of content, because that's the purpose of these algorithms is making sure that you're seeing the things that you should be seeing when you're searching. So it's, it's in one. So that was the first thing I just want to make sure I clarify that about the microworkers. But the other thing you mentioned about white hat, I've always been an I'm not an SEO guy, but I've always been a little bit confused. Like what do you mean by white hat is that? I guess just SEO strategy that's ethically done? Is that essentially what it is or something different?

Mario Nawfal 24:46
Yeah. So that's your first question. I think you do SEO so you understand that all this growth hacking is fluff if you don't, if you're not good at copywriting, because growth hacking, get your attention gets your traffic gets you ahead of it gets you an edge, but if you're post on Quora shit. Yeah, people are not gonna read it and Google will penalize it. Because to play the long game, you have to think of what the algorithm is looking to achieve your game if you're trying to get ahead, but you can't use anyone that takes shortcuts in a way that's not bringing value to the end consumer. It's not gonna last. So if your article is crap, Google will find that out, people will not read it, people will not show up, people will just not take action. So let's say we send 1000s of messages a day on LinkedIn for us and for our clients. We do the same on slack. We do the same on Instagram emails, now we're gonna start doing on Discord. If that message is crap, if that message is spammy, if the targeting is bad, we send 1000s of messages pretty much for free, but it'd be a waste, because the copies are all close to waste, because the copy is banned. So the copy is everything. And in copywriting is, again, an incredible skill to learn copywriting and growth hacking your your set for business, and I mean it. Okay, now, Joshua question. So that's in terms of the core, and he said, How do you have to get people that go? The basic authentication, what we do is we tell people on microworkers, because they're, they make money by doing the actions, you Oh, you tell them, it's the class, all they'll do is they'll go in there because they'll upload. But if you want them to spend time on the page, the way we do it, and that's thanks to a person called Jared coddling his incredible growth hacker, where he came up with an idea to tell the people to send you the first word, the 12th word and the master of every paragraph in the article. So now they have to read down, find those words, and then send them to you and then upload to get paid. So it's like a little quiz they have to fill to find those words, it takes them a bit more time to pay them a tiny bit more, but now they have to spend time on the article before uploading. And now the algorithm will assume they read the article because they spent time finding those specific words that make sense.

Jake Anderson 26:43
Yeah, so you Okay, yeah, totally. So if you have an article, you give them, you know, I need word one, or 520 and 62, in that recovery

Mario Nawfal 26:55
of each of each paragraph. So we do have every paragraph because each articles like has fire. Let's move on the first word, the last word and the 12th word, and have to count up up up, they have to write the first word 12. But that would, that would, that would, you can even complicate it what the first paragraph I want the first 12 and last second paragraph, I want the third, a and, and 13th. And that's it. They're counting, they spent time in the article. And then the algorithm will be like, these are legitimate upvotes and it will count them. Now the white hat and black hat. I don't go blackhat for three reasons. I don't allow external blockades. I don't want the drama. I don't want the headaches, I can sleep well at night. I think it's too risky. And I think it's short term focused. I like long term. I like building brands I like everything I do is long term, short term money. I don't waste my time on it, because I'm in a pretty comfortable position in life and I don't want to jeopardize it. Right. So now what do I mean by black hat. Black Hat in general means you're crossing lines, like on Discord. For example. Right now yesterday, one of my my growth hacker I want to mention it but one of my team members, he digs into these things, he looks into them. That Mario actually there's a way like we like to share blackout strategies that we find but we never do them on discord, which is people built communities, he found a way to go into a Discord server and be able to bring down a server, that means we can we can find out our competitor whatsoever there unless you have a podcast that's competing with you. They use discord as a community, you could shut down a group, like deleted off the platform, and they lose 1000s of people in a group. That's blackhat strategy. That's pretty we can growth hackers. Like there's a guy called Joe, that I know he's not in my team. But as a good friend of mine, he can destroy your websites, if you cross him, he can like destroy all of your analytics by getting a lot of porn traffic to your website. And he can D index your website from Google. He could he could crush you. And he's never done those strategies. But these are things that growth hackers can do. And that's where there's a line where white hat hackers in general, no hackers can go in and steal money blackhat actual blackhat hacking is illegal or unethical. And then white hat hackers, which are very popular, they go in, they do it in different companies, but they tell the company that like hey, I found this vulnerability and they get paid for it. They called pen testers pen test penetration testers or or white hat hackers. So growth hackers is the same. You could do growth hacking to get ahead as a business strategy, you know, businesses competition, or you could do it in a black way. I gave you some extreme examples. But a black white could be, you know, SEO strategies that work, but the algorithm wouldn't like, and what happens is that you could get penalized for that. That's like the unethical blackhat but not illegal blackhat and then those illegal things like the discord or destroying a competitor.

Jake Anderson 29:33
Is there a way that as you're talking about your friend that can go in and pretty much destroy you if you want it to? Right? He has the skill and capability to go in and wipe you out? wipe out your website? I mean, can people is there a way to protect yourself against that? I mean, is it I'm just curious is

Mario Nawfal 29:53
there is there is like I'm not the technical one. I don't know how to do it. I got it's like a general overview. It's tough like one of the things he does If he would use, he would be able to get a lot of traffic from different porn websites or different really low quality websites to literally flood your website that will screw up all your remarketing, if you're remarketing to your audience, you're sitting there remarketing to some cheap porn traffic that doesn't care about your website. And that's it, you're wasting money that way and your conversion rate collapses. That's really I don't know how to find that. And if you have an Instagram page, for example, and someone just buys a whole bunch of fake followers, your Instagram page, and like really colloquially, fake followers and flood your Instagram page with fake comments, the only thing you could do sitting there, like it costs them dollars pennies to this sensitive or whatever you call that tense. Very, very cheap to do that. And then it's bad to do that to your Instagram, it fucks up the algorithm. Sorry for cursing the algorithm. It screws up the algorithm. And it looks bad. You know, let's say you have 10,000 followers and tomorrow you wake up this 100,000 followers, everyone will know they're fake, and that your comments are full of crap. Fake, always fake like it, you just have to sit there cleaning them manually. So that To be honest, if you cross a growth hacker, it's so sad. If you cross one of those really, unless like going down that that path is is so ugly, if you cross them I just don't they don't have much to lose. Many of them don't have a lot of money to prising because they don't know how to build a business that is focused on like no short term growth hacks, most of them not all. And so the blackhouse will just destroy your business, and they don't have anything to lose. They do it anonymously. And so it's really difficult to an expensive to fight against. And I've never been the victim of it. Of course I've never caused it to anyone because it's not who I am. But I've never been the victim of it. But what they've told me the things I've seen that they can do, I've never seen anyone do it. So I've never met someone who has done those seeds. I shall met someone has done them and work with them. But the things they do I just can't find a way of finding finding I just can't I really cannot kind of do that. Like I can we can destroy people really easily. And I'm thinking there's no way for them to get out of it. And now obviously the other side of the coin is that there is a technical maybe there's a way to track who did it and there's a way to track it back but those growth hackers are really smart those people you find on websites like blackhat world they're they're pretty freaking insane but there's a world I try to stay away from

Jake Anderson 32:19
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I don't want to be involved in that world either. I try to try to stay in good graces with with everybody I can I don't want to cross the growth accurate is doing things like that, because that's

Mario Nawfal 32:30
as much as lashes to shortly Yeah, just to show for that drama.

Jake Anderson 32:34
Yeah, for sure. Well, let's let's let's you know, we're kind of getting near the end here. And I want to before we really get signed off I want to ask you about clubhouse and and kind of let kind of segue in the clubhouse. What you're doing with growth hacking is see the way I understand that this is something that can be applied to specific platforms like he mentioned Cora, but with clubhouse I'm, it sounds like you almost had some growth hacking, even in that strategy, because you were able to create one of the largest, I guess was the largest business rooms that was hosting. You know, what, 2000 people every day, 2000 listeners every day,

Mario Nawfal 33:14
something days a week for for like five from 11 hours straight. So I tend to 1000s people listening to that room every day.

Jake Anderson 33:21
Wow. So what so what did you do? Like how were you able to build a room so large?

Mario Nawfal 33:26
Okay, so this is where the growth hacking mindset came in. That what I did in the early days, anyone on clubhouse, everyone likes to talk about doing your own room consistently, which I did. jumping in other rooms and speaking in giving value, which I did. And then this properly, like, thankfully I know how to speak. I've built that skill over over many years. I know what I'm talking about. Because I spent most of my life not saying anything and just learning like crazy, I read like crazy. So I am in a position to be able to give value and I've had some success that puts me in the right position. So I got the basics done. Without the basics. Like if I wasn't giving value in those rooms, I'd never have the biggest room. Okay. And when my rooms stopped when I faced the drama, I wouldn't have that big community supporting me sending 1000s of messages to my boss. So that level of support wouldn't be there so that they can like I said copywriting is key for growth hacking cobots it's audio only you have to know how to speak when we have guests here. If guests achieved tremendous success I would look at are they able to eloquent will eloquently communicate a message? If not, they're probably not the best guest to have. So that's the basic thing. It's odd. You got money, people have to speak well not look good. Now, how did I growth hack it the best thing I did for growth, I didn't go deep into growth hacking because the platform is very new. The community was very small when I was there like I stopped being there about a month and a bit ago. But when I was there, the community was very small. So growth hacking when I started growth hacking it backfired. And my growth hack was very simple. But like you know on Instagram you reach out to influencers you pay them hey can you support that was my Golf, how can you promote this product? That's influencer marketing one on one. So the golf hack I went to is I went to we went to moderate as my team, as my team's got to moderate, hey, when I was nothing, hey, we can pay you. And just help us become a moderator and give us an audience. I thought they were heartless works the same way as other platform. But turns out No, it's a small community and they responded badly. Now it would work now that it's matured. And there's people that do that, and you pay them back when I wanted to offer, offer them payment. And they, you know, backfired pretty badly, then people weren't happy. Just now, charging for that service was just timing was not right. The growth hack I did, though, was building relationships with influencers. So there were people with a big following that I'm friends with Now, what I did essentially was I would just reach out to them and give them value. I had a team behind me, chat for them every day, how can I bring you value, build relationships with them. So when I created my own room, and I invited them, and I would invite them every time I create a room, they would come and they would support for the very, very basic growth hack. Now if I was starting out now on we on clubhouse, it's much easier that we have you we can reach out to all of clubhouses, can members we can reach out to the messages and say, Hey, join our room. We could do that right now. So if I was a catastrophe, now, I wasn't having that issue of the whole bullying aspect of it. If I was have comments right now, and I would just message hundreds of 1000s people I said join my room for example, I would use that audience and remarket to them as well. I would then go to go with the moderators now moderators charge so hey, I pay you come support my room. But that works a bit less and combats gonna open up soon there's easy way to find clubhouse communities on different platforms. You can scrape clubhouse, Facebook groups, class communities on telegram, etc, scraping these get their email and then dm them on Instagram, etc in an automated way. So that's what my team would do. Say, Hey, join our group. All these things we could do right now. We didn't do them back then because it was too small. And we just bootstrapped it from nothing but a first starting from scratch and I'm sure people are doing it. There's ways to do that as well. So that would be my my two cents. But it all comes down to if you don't give value in that room. It wouldn't work. And another thing we did another growth hack when my roof started growing every day to over 1000 to get it to like two 3000 month we'll bring celebrities. So I would bring people like you know, Randi Zuckerberg, Jay Shetty, Tai Lopez, Grant Cardone all these people drop in my room on a regular basis in some cases, Jesse Itzler, Craig Clements, Brendon Burchard. All these people dropping all the time to my room. Wow.

Jake Anderson 37:32
So what so you had talked about there was, I guess a bullying incident? That happened?

Mario Nawfal 37:39
It's mind boggling. Yeah. It's just crazy. Like I told you, there's a story about me calling up. I've called up people that sell courses all my life. And then someone a celebrity sent a millionaire. For I'm the one that selling courses assumed that because there was a few sort of classes like moderated to get a green badge. So I was in a room one of the various moderators, I was actually asleep, he came in two or three moderators, that was selling courses he assumed everyone was and then he made a whole fuss about it. Starting reporting everyone he made it his vendetta to call out most people selling courses on the platform, which you know, I fight his battle. You know, I call that these people. Actually, in the early days of clubhouse, by the way, I call that most people opening on the platform, and many of them blocked me. And that almost destroyed my junior class before I even started, and I had on my bio, I never sell cause I never, I never charged for helping I always have for free I never charged for courses, I always have free big capital letters in my bio. So I was like, the anti cost person, I backfired on me. And now here I am, he thought I was the person that leading that team of core sellers. I was the head of it because I had the biggest room. And then they all reported me. And then I'm guessing this got my account suspended. Because the next day I was suspended. And then I'm still suspended five, six weeks, five weeks later, I'm still not sure why To be honest, I'm not sure why I'm not reinstated. But that's, that's, you know, the platform is still growing, the algorithm is still maturing. So obviously, that they're building the platform. It sucks, because you know, had massive momentum. But I'm doing the same thing on Twitter spaces. We did a Twitter space yesterday. So Twitter spaces copy and clubhouse. We did a Twitter space yesterday called the Round Table some of the biggest names on Twitter. And that was the biggest space of the day. And I'll be doing that and I'll be dominating Twitter space as soon as well. And again, growth hacking mentality, get people with a big following. They'll then their followers will be notified when they want to space and get them to tweet about it. So like the same concept of Turner plus I have the reputation I did on top of building the biggest room. So now people know that I build big rooms and they come to me on twitter spaces. But I'm using that same strategy, the gaming the algorithm, the algorithm favors people that have a big following. Bring them to your room have them speak have them tweet about Twitter. So it's the same concept that Twitter's copying clubhouse telegrams copying club as Facebook is obviously coming from a company called bass like they do all the time. So the concept of audio on the chat is here to stay and leverage, leverage the algorithm has the growth hacking mentality in everything you do. I had another story of my, my business partner was in Turkey on New Year's Day, I know we have to go We almost broke his leg, we growth hacked him to be able to come in come travel to another country to even though he was not allowed to travel, we found a way of growth hacking, messaged everyone at the airlines, something like that we use a crazy story of a video about it, it's outside of business, got him out of the country to do his surgery for his broken me and shattered me or whatever. So growth hacking is a way to get ahead in life.

Jake Anderson 40:32
Yeah, I, you know, I'm curious to hear and thank you for sharing that story. And it's, you know, I think with social media now, even before we started the interview, you're talking about just, you know, the censorship, and I think in your case, it was almost like guilty by association, you were just in a room, and there were people that are selling it, you said you were asleep, right, When, when, when all that was going on. So I mean, it's it's in things, you know, these platforms are so big with so many people that I can only imagine how challenging it must be. Sometimes I even though as frustrated as I could, you know, as it as it can appear, when you see the censoring and things happening. And even when you need some some support from like, like a company like Facebook, and you're frustrated by the lack of support. At the same time, also try to understand, like, you know, there's billions of people that are on this platform. And, you know, so to be able to keep up with that into into follow the laws and to, you know, stay within the guidelines. I'm not you know, I'm not an expert, any I imagine is it must be really challenging. So and clubhouse has grown so quickly, that probably for them, you know, you're you're in the queue somewhere buried in the haystack.

Mario Nawfal 41:46
I'm not in the queue. I The thing is they know about my case, all of them know about my case, stated. And they're still no expert, I still don't understand why. So it's very bizarre drama, I'm still trying to get my head around it. Yeah, I don't understand we've been in communication, they've only responded once directly. And everything else all other communication was indirect, even though they've one of the Most High, probably the most high profile suspension on the platform. And they've even said they know about my case. So it's very bizarre, I don't understand why I don't get it. I'm not gonna sit there guessing why. But it's also it's just fascinating to see, like, here's someone that hasn't sold, of course, hasn't crossed any line, and just brings value to the platform on a daily basis, at least I see it as such, and everyone else does 1000s of people every day. And then, like imagine I didn't have my companies, I didn't have my life off the platform. I didn't have things to do off the platform. Imagine I put all my effort into clubhouse, and I built that following I built that that became my life. And then it just gets cut little communication. And there's no way for me to communicate with them. And they literally control people's lives with this. And so immense responsibility. So it's a, it's this is, this is a fascinating power that the social media platforms have. And now I can empathize a lot more for people that have a big following up platforms like Instagram, but hey, because they posted one nude photo, their account suspended or their sex work their account suspended, or they made a wrong tweet. I mean, I'm not political anything. So I'm not referring to Donald Trump in this case, but I'm just general and or Donald Trump's high profile one, but they made one tweet, or they stand for something that person doesn't agree with. But again, there's guidelines they should follow, they should not you know, posting illegal content is wrong, breaking the Kree guidelines. And if you've received a warning, and they keep breaking them, that's a different story they ever want, you have to be immediate suspended with no warning and never be not have recourse, especially smaller fish. You know, I've got big following. I've had big influence on the platform. So I've got a voice. But imagine people that don't have a voice. And there's a lot of people that were suspended have canals still suspended more than a month, but they don't have the voice that I have. And I hit them hard, because that became their life for a few months. And I've been on platform for six months before I got suspended for six weeks. They've been on platform for two, three months. And it's just it's just sad to see that happen to them. And I hope they there's the platform to take this more seriously because it said they do control people's lives to an extent in many cases.

Jake Anderson 44:19
Yeah, it's it mean for for especially in this day, a time where a lot of people are building businesses online, and they're, you know, they get concentrated on these platforms. And Facebook has been one of those platforms to I've noticed that and I'm I'm connected with some people who run ads for as an agency and and they've told me that like randomly they'll it'll just be one day and the whole business page has been shut down, completely shut down.

Mario Nawfal 44:45
And this is messed up like this is. Look, there's a lot of smart people working there. So from a technical perspective, I'm sure there's a reason if we get one of the devs here one of the architects whatever he could say it's because x y Zed give us technical answer, but from from a victim space. active. It's insane that I have a lot of companies. Now I'm a growth hacker, we game algorithms. So for us to get accounts suspended, it's okay. Like we do that for a living shop. But I'm not ecommerce companies as well, I do nothing like, everything's white hat. And then there's one word that's wrong one image that has a breast shown too much when selling bikini, and then the whole account gets suspended takes us days to unsuspended that can really harm a business. And I've seen stories of, of things happening to people for literally no reason I go to my Facebook guy, I'm like, Hey, come on, like, what did we do? What could it be like Mario? I generally cannot even guess what it is. And a business could depend 80% of their revenue could be from Facebook. Yeah, yeah, they just left there, they got employees to pay etc. So in a great day, with such massive impact, you know, comes great responsibility with such power, and clubhouses, heading down that same path as well, that if they continue growing, they will have a lot of power, a lot of influence. And with that will come great responsibility. And so I think like, the way I've been treated, that doesn't change, the platform will definitely suffer because they're not the case has been everyone I've spoken with, no one understands. Like no one can give me a logical explanation of why they would just be treated this way. So I hope that they improve and I hope anyone else is struggling to bring that value to the audience struggle, but as depending too much on one platform, diversify. diversify your life diversify your business is good to focus. There's a great book called The one thing for when you focus on the Wi Fi focus, everything on clubhouse had nothing else that happened to me. I'm screwed.

Jake Anderson 46:41
I agree. I agree completely. I think you have to have some diversification, and where you're visible and where people can connect with you. And I know, I hear a lot of recommendations like build your list, you know, least own the traffic and build that. So you know, in case something happens, you get shut down or have you know, presence in different platforms in case one, you know, because you're on Twitter spaces. Now you were on clubhouse, but you know, you just reverted your energy over to Twitter spaces doing the same thing. You know, too bad for clubhouse good for Twitter, because, you know, they get the value that you're bringing to the platform. And that's what makes the platforms work.

Mario Nawfal 47:19
Now, what's crazy like Twitter, Twitter's Twitter spaces team was smart enough to my first face. They were there with me. They DM me. They stick I've never heard anyone from club I forgot his biggest daily business room. I haven't had one person reach out to me from club has a good one good about my professional before one call with a clubhouse team. And none of that. So um, yeah, it's We'll see. We'll see like they're very early that grew very quickly. For anyone on clubhouse. It's a very I've given you, I've told you how I grew up, give me some tips on how to grow. I'm slightly cautious just DM me as well. But it's a platform that should definitely focus on. But also look at Twitter spaces, which is still early in the clouds very, very early. still in beta. You know, deep beta like it's got a lot of glitches and stuff telegram is looking into I think they're about to introduce some of a feature telegram. It's really fast. The Russians are fast with this stuff. Facebook is doing fireside chat. So I would go deep in those things are your only chat is here to stay. And and you know that yourself Jackie sent to me your club as you saw my room here now. So you know the power of audio on the chat. And that's why you're doing a podcast.

Jake Anderson 48:22
Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love the audio experience and having the ability to connect with people. You know, that was one of the things I loved about clubhouse was just that connection that you know, you could get with people that was unlike any other platform. You know, I felt like I was really building some meaningful relationships. So well, Mario, we're at the end of the episode here. I want to ask like, where can people get connected with you? I know you're on Twitter spaces, but like what would be the best way for people to get in contact? best way

Mario Nawfal 48:50
for people to make the most value out of me to make the most out of knowing me? As this DM me on any platform set. I want to join your community. Someone will add you in we have WhatsApp communities, Facebook communities, and but we go above and beyond in helping people have asked me why I do it. Like what's your end goal? What's your phone? What's your strategy, especially qobuz mchunu getting 1000s of over 1000 messages a day literally not overdoing it. 1000 tons of 100 messages a day, people wanting to join from clubhouse. And people say like, What's your goal? What is your course is anything there? For me. I think the value is the community. I think there's massive value in having community and plus I get so much pleasure out of it. That's a bit weird, but it is what it is. So just Google my name Mario nofal na, WF and a WF al and just DM me on any platform. And I am here to help.

Jake Anderson 49:39
Awesome well and also to for the listeners here. This episode I'm going to I'm going to take some some bites out of this and have some highlights and create that digital home for Mario's episode on the introspective podcast website. And we'll give you kind of all the links and things that we were talking about how people can get connected. with you as well, just to kind of

Mario Nawfal 50:01
give a shout out to Jake shoot you forgot to share this balancing Oh yeah, especially where I'm living now.

Jake Anderson 50:06
Um, yeah,

Mario Nawfal 50:07
no one can see it right now if you're not on video you can't see it. There's all there's all they see it as upstairs. If you're not on video you're not seeing where I live. So there's a little bit a little CTA for going to video to build up that YouTube channel.

Jake Anderson 50:20
We created a massive open loop now for my audio audience. They're just like they're on I know their keyboard. Getting on YouTube. It is it is pretty nice. I remember I got I was like, dude, you look like you're in a castle right now. It's like I see all this beautiful stone backdrop, mahogany wood. So yeah, man, this is great. Thank you so much. And for anybody listening. For that section just go to introspective podcast backslash Mario novel is Ma Ri o in a W FAL and then I want to have the YouTube video you know the full episode here. Some some highlights some links and things like that on how you can get connected and anything else Mario might want me to put on that page that's I try to create a digital home for everybody that that I interview to really highlight them on. My goal is to shine My goal is to shine your light as bright as I possibly can man so I try to create the flywheel for it so so that's that's my goal here with that so definitely go check that out get connected with Mario your growth hacking strategy sound incredible. I'm going to personally reach out on these communities too because I'm you've really got me interested in learning about the crazy

Mario Nawfal 51:32
like the amount of podcasts I jump on and then the host of the podcast jumps into SAS implementing them. Honestly, man like, I mean, I don't have a course to sell. I know someone that has I can recommend this as a paid course as a boot camps like $100 every three months, really good. It's called the growth hacking boot camp. I'll give them a bit of a plug here. I'm not affiliated no commission, nothing. But he has a good boot camp that he has a community to his name is Curio. But I do want to say that. I promise. Like I've said this even before I had the agency. Now I have an agency. I was saying before I was doing it just for my companies and not for clients. It's the best thing that's happened to me in a few in many years. It gives me an edge in everything I do. It's crazy, like right after this, but that's my jumping my team because yesterday they gave me all this shit like a list of strategies. Fucking sorry for swearing, but I'm going to record that quantum medic posted. If you join that coin. Listen, it's mind boggling the things they tell me man that Mario we can send? We can do this we can we can automatically comment on on YouTube videos. Hundreds a day during our 1000s day with any comment you like automatically. So if it's a good copy, we can send out an automatic comment to every podcast telling people Hey, this as a podcast is better. For example, I'm just giving an example. So that does yesterday he told me about it. So Yemen it's just it just fascinates me but I know we're over time so I'll dish

Jake Anderson 52:48
Yeah, no, I just I'm taking it in man, this is great. Like you're you're certainly somebody who and I said in the beginning the up and I've really feel like you've cracked the code here and just hearing the different angles that you take in your strategies and clearly you're very successful, you've done very well for yourself and, and and in a really interesting way like, like, you're truly like you're the epitome of the person that has, you know, listen, you could throw me out on the streets and give me give me a certain amount of time I'm going to be back where I was because you know how to bootstrap it, you know how to growth hack it and get back to the top and I think that is a that is a skill set that it that is probably like the most valuable skill set I can think of anybody having to be able to just no matter what life throws at me, you can put me anywhere you want. You know you can put me in Lebanon and Avila you can put me in Colombia wherever it needs to be I want to grow back and I want to

Mario Nawfal 53:48
just like just like that. Grant Cardone and billionaire undercover billionaire show as fast as they put some diamond haven't watched any full episode, I've just watched clips here and there was nothing. There's Greg on someone before Him that does the same thing. I forgot his name. But they they put him in that position and billionaire from nothing. And showing you that because you've learned certain things, you know how certain things work in a certain shortcut like you knowing the skills that you know. And that's why it's always good to learn from people like like myself, or people who are smarter than me, people that have been there you learn from them. You learn from other people's mistakes instead of having to do them yourself from the beginning. So I've learned from my own mistakes. I've learned from other people's mistakes, because I'm always humbly learning and reading. So when I go out and starting from scratch, I know what not to do, at least I know what not to do. And I know things that I can do and do them in a way that gives me a better return because I've been there and done that. And that's why podcasts like this gives you that edge, but they only give you an edge if you've got a pen and paper if you're taking notes if you're going out there and doing something with it. So when I do my rooms on campus, I'll end it with this when I did my rooms and clubs now let's do our spaces. I would end up with the following everyone listening. I want you to go out from this room from this space and do one thing, they'll make a difference to you just one thing because if you don't do anything, then you just wasted A few hours of your time getting into paint instead of doing something with what you learnt. Hmm,

Jake Anderson 55:05
yeah. And it's in it's the small steps, right? There's small steps that you can take just go do that one thing and and go implement it because most people don't do anything. They'll listen to something and like that sounds amazing. Sounds crazy cool. What did you do with it? You know, I went in and got a sandwich or something and I didn't do anything with it. Don't be afraid to be legendary. Get out there and make it happen. So, Mario, thanks so much. I appreciate your time brother and everybody listening. Thank you for tuning into the day's daily deep dive here on the introspective podcast and we will see you on tomorrow's episode.



Glad you’re with us for another new week here on the Introspective. For today, let’s take a deep dive into growth hacking with special guest, Mario Nawfal. Mario was one of the top influencers on Clubhouse with an average of 2,000 daily listeners in his room "The Roundtable"...until one unfortunate event that we uncover in the full episode.

Mario is the founder of the Athena Group of Companies, a conglomerate operating in more than 40 countries.  One of Mario's companies, Froothie, propelled to $1 million in year one and over $10 million in year two through a combination of unconventional marketing techniques, efficient logistical systems, and a team of global contractors.

Since then, Mario has launched multiple ventures into millions up until now and is currently a partner at a law firm and the founder of a VC fund. In 2020, Mario decided to begin documenting his journey and helping other entrepreneurs at no cost. Make sure not to miss this episode as Mario takes you behind the curtain of growth hacking and how he was able to rocket launch his success using these strategies on the Clubhouse app. 

What You'll Learn

  • The power of Clubhouse and Twitter spaces
  • The potential of growth hacking as an underrated method in business.
  • Mario’s insights on mentorship and coaching as a way of approaching life and business.

“Diversify. Diversify your life. Diversify your business” 

-Mario Nawfal

Learn how Mario Nawfal's secret weapon to rapid growth, and how it can be applied to sites like Quora.

Connect with Mario Nawfal

  • Visit him on the web:
  • Connect on Instagram:  @marionawfal
  • Connect on Twitter: @marionawfal

Follow this Podcast

Thank you for taking a deep dive on today’s episode of the Introspective Podcast.  If you found this episode to be interesting, valuable, and provided some fresh perspective for your entrepreneur journey - then head on over to Itunes to subscribe and leave a review with your feedback.  If you’re not an Apple user, then feel free to leave a comment below with your thoughts.  Your feedback is paramount to the success of this show, and provides direction for how I can best serve you.

-Your friendly Podcast Host, Jake Anderson 

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